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September 2010 > Theology: Stephen Hawking & More Tiresome Atheism
The Word On Fire Blog

Theology: Stephen Hawking & More Tiresome Atheism



 
Father Barron weighs in on renown scientist Stephen Hawking's upcoming book release in which he offers his "scientific" view on the existence of a creator. 

So another prominent British academic has weighed in on the God question. Stephen Hawking, probably the best-known scientist in the world, has said, in a book to be published a week before the Pope’s visit to Britain, that the universe required no Creator. (I’m sure, of course, that there was no “intelligent design” behind that choice of publication date!). I confess that something in me tightens whenever I hear a scientist pontificating on issues that belong to the arena of philosophy or metaphysics. I will gladly listen to Stephen Hawking when he holds forth on matters of theoretical physics, but he’s as qualified to talk about philosophical and religious issues as any college freshman. There is a qualitative difference between the sciences, which speak of objects, forces, and phenomena within the observable universe, and philosophy or religion which speak of ultimate origins and final purposes. Science, as such, simply cannot adjudicate questions that lie outside of its proper purview—and this is precisely why scientists tend to make lots of silly statements when they attempt to philosophize.

Here’s an example from Hawking’s latest book: “Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing.” Well, first of all, which is it: nothing or the law of gravity? There’s quite a substantial difference between the two. If Hawking is saying that the universe, which is marked in every nook and cranny by stunning and mathematically describable intellegibility, simply came forth from Nothing, then I just throw up my hands. The classical philosophical tradition gives us an adage that is still hard to improve upon: ex nihilo nihil fit (from nothing comes nothing). Any teacher worth his salt would take a student to task if, in trying to explain why and how a given phenomenon occurred, the student were to say, “well, it just spontaneously happened.” Yet we are expected to be satisfied with precisely that explanation when it comes to the most pressing and fascinating question of all: why is there something rather than nothing? In my dialogues with atheists, I often come up against this total non-explanation, and I can only smile ruefully. Apparently, the affirmation of God involves far too great a leap of faith, yet the assertion that the universe just popped into being is rationally compelling!

So suppose we say (to return to Hawking’s rather incoherent statement) that gravity is the ultimate cause of the universe. This would mean that a force within nature is the source of the being of the world. To be sure, this sort of claim has a long pedigree, stretching back at least to the pre-Socratics, but it remains highly problematic. The question “why is there something rather than nothing?” is not searching after a thing within the universe, but rather the being of the universe. It is wondering why (to use the technical term) contingent things exist, that is to say, things that do not contain within themselves the reason for their own being. You and I are contingent in the measure that we had parents, that we eat and drink, and that we breathe. In a word, we don’t explain ourselves. Now if we want to understand why we exist, we cannot go on endlessly appealing to other contingent things. We must come finally to some reality which exists through the power of its own essence, some power whose very nature it is to be. But that whose very nature it is to be cannot, in any sense, be limited or imperfect in being, and this is precisely why Catholic philosophy has identified this non-contingent ground of contingency, this ultimate explanation of the being of the universe, as “God.” To claim that something as finite and variable as the force of gravity is this ultimate explaining value is simply ludicrous. However all-embracing or powerful it is, gravity is still a worldly nature, something within the contingent cosmos
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There is a line from one of the articles describing Hawking’s book that I found, actually, quite helpful and illuminating. The author said, “in his new book, The Grand Design…Hawking sets out a comprehensive thesis that the scientific framework leaves no room for a deity.” Quite right. Since the true God is not a being alongside other beings, not one thing in the universe among many, he is not circumscribable within a scientific frame of understanding. He should not, therefore, even in principle, be either affirmed or denied from a purely scientific perspective. There is, of course, rampant today a “scientism” which would reduce all legitimate knowing to the scientific mode of knowing. You can find this form of dogmatism in the writings of all of the prominent “new” atheists: Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, etc. I must confess that I’m disappointed that Stephen Hawking appears to have joined their company.

Father Robert Barron is the Director of Word on Fire Catholic Ministries.
Posted: 9/3/2010 2:10:44 PM by Word On Fire | with 49 comments
Filed under: creator, FatherBarron, science, StephenHawking, WordonFire


Trackback URL: http://www.wordonfire.org/trackback/0cef96bc-e8c6-4d25-a8d1-63fe74616305/Theology--Stephen-Hawking---More-Tiresome-Atheism.aspx

Comments
JohnE
Good article. On the opposite side of the coin, I recently received an email from a well-known speaker for a well-known Catholic apologetics organization advertising a program that claims to cover "scientific proofs for the existence of God", distinct from "philosophical principles for proving the existence of God". I can certainly see science showing the reasonableness of the existence of God, but science PROVING the existence of God seems to be a stretch.
9/3/2010 1:12:38 PM
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David Meyer
Rom. 1:19-23 Comes to mind.

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

It seems Hawking has exchanged the glory of the Creator for something obviously created: gravity. Talk about foolish.
I have read one of his books about time and it was great. Why is he now embarking on this embarassing foray into philosophy?

I have listened to heavy metal bands in my day that are more philosophically coherent.

Thank you Fr. Barron for your insights. I am converting next Easter and it is good to know there are intelligent, witty, winsome Catholics like you out there to follow.

-David Meyer
9/3/2010 1:20:48 PM
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Greg Stone
Strange development. Hawking advanced this theory some time ago, then retracted it, as it is easily proven untenable.

Why would the same theory be advanced now? Did his publisher push him to release it for other than scientific reasons?

As you point out, the law of gravity is an abstraction. Gravity itself depends on the existence of space, time, and energy-matter.

One does not have attraction between mass in space unless one has mass and space and time. Thus, it is clearly a false argument.

Some years ago I participated in a listserv discussion about this very theory, the idea that the universe arose from spontaneous combustion. It was an argument meant to support a book much like this one.

I was able to prove the argument was flawed. The author was furious when physicists and mathematicians agreed with me.

Very strange such an argument would resurface.
9/3/2010 3:16:40 PM
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Nancy
It seems to me that gravity while a law of nature, is certainly not a constant in the observable universe. To hold that observable but dependent laws prove anything seems really flawed to me.
9/3/2010 4:00:52 PM
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Dan
Well said Father! Thanks for yet another coherent and enlightening response.

Dan
9/3/2010 4:30:31 PM
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Esther
I have never heard that the force of gravity can create matter. (But then, I'm not on the cutting edge of scientific research) Assuming it does, I disagree with Hawkings. I do not believe this proves that there is no requirement for a God to create the universe. That makes as much sense to me as saying that since my OVEN baked my cookies, I was not a required element to getting those cookies baked.

Anyhow, let's cut the guy a little slack. If he had mirrored Einstein's statement that the more he understands science, the more he understands God, we would have hailed him as a brilliant man and said he was worthy to share his opinions on God. But because he has made a statement contrary to our own beliefs, we tear down his re*****tion and ridicule him. That's a little unfair of us. don't you think?

Shouldn't the value we place on his opinion be independent of whether or not he agrees with us? Or are we so childish as to only praise those who agree with us?
9/3/2010 6:04:08 PM
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Pangel2012
Kind of hard to read all the philosophical arguments, as I never took philosophy seriously. I feel sorry for Hawking's as he probably is very runned down w/his MS after all these years. He probably ment gravity is like the sand-in-hour glass - once it runs out it tips over and starts again. The question is "Who tips the hour-glass over after all the sand is gone down?" Not too smart are we, Hawkings?
9/3/2010 8:32:32 PM
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Sharon
<i>I recently received an email from a well-known speaker for a well-known Catholic apologetics organization...</i>

John, don't be coy, if you are telling the truth, name names. Which apologist, which Catholic apologetics organization? Without names your comment has as much validity as "sources close to the palace said....."
9/3/2010 9:50:56 PM
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JohnE
Sharon:
http://www.catholic.com/new/why_be_catholic.asp
9/3/2010 11:51:50 PM
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Dante
I just read an article from John Lennox from the Daily Mail.

His critique of Prof. Hawking is similar.

He also pointed out that it seems Prof. Hawking is really confusing two categories here: that of law and agency. Gravity by itself cannot cause anything to come into being out of nothing, and as someone here already pointed out, if there was absolutely nothing prior to the Big Bang, there couldn't have also been gravity, for there were no space, time, matter and energy.
9/4/2010 12:42:31 AM
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Al
How did it come to be (correct me if I'm wrong) that water, like no other kown compound, expands when heated or cooled. That's why ice floats. If it didn't, could there be any life as we know it? How did water, "happen"?

And yes, this is a flip flop for him.
9/4/2010 7:14:44 AM
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Kevin
My cat caused his own existence by meowing.
9/4/2010 9:02:41 AM
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Mark
Dr. Hawking should be wholly embarassed as his contentions violate not only one but two absolute truths: (1) the Law of Non-contridction (2) the Law of Causality

Violation of the Law of Non-contridiction is solely sufficient to relegate Dr. Hawkings argument to one of total absurdity - to whit - the Universe is "self created" .. which means, it would have had to existed before it existed. Or as you stated in the article, something came from nothing. I would recommend anyone that wants a logical and thorough treatment of the classical apologetics apporach to the exstence of God to listen to Dr. R. C. Sproul's series 30 minute presentation starting with the first covering "four possibilities of reality as we know it" followed by 14 others. This series deals in quite a bit of detail as to the classical (non-presupisitional, non self-authenticating, non circular logic/arguments, non reliant on Biblical references) approach. If an interlectually honest person hears Dr. Sproul's presentations will be forced to either suc*****b to the overwhelming force of logic or admit they choose to believe in the absurd. Unfortunately, many great minds - like Dr. Hawking - refuse to believe in anything that is beyond their inante comprehension and will reject the truth to believe in the absurd lie. Ego's can be very self-destructive.

If God could be fully explained and understood and comprehended, He would not be God. I believe that's where "the rub" is with individuals like Dr. Hawking. If they refuse to admit there is something so big and grand as to be beyond their own intellect to comprehend and explain ... ergo, it must not exist.

But - the very bottom line - it should be embarassing for Dr. Hawking to publicly proclaim and promote the absurdity that "nothing created something" and the "something" created itself before it existed".

How sad and embarassing for someone with an obviously great intellect to display such ingnorance, illogic, and egotism.

It is not wise for a man of Dr. Hawking's health to (methaphorically) stick a finger in the Creator's eye. Dr. Hawking may want to rethink his belief before he meets his Creator face-to-face ... and whether he believes it or not, he will.
9/4/2010 9:22:39 AM
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Ron Henzel
As has been noted in a previous comment, and as Hawking well knows, gravity cannot exist without matter because gravity is produced by matter. This is a tenet shared by both Quantum and Relativity physics (though they differ somewhat in their explanations of precisely how matter creates it). So, since an effect cannot be the cause of its own cause, how do we give Hawking the benefit of the doubt that he is not being utterly incoherent in his logic? Although I am certainly not sympathetic to his conclusions, I think it's possible that what we have here is an unfortunate (or at best unclear) choice of verb tenses in his words "can and will."

I haven't read Hawking's latest book, nor am I aware of the retracted theory to which Greg refers, but if all he said on this point was, "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing," I doubt that in his mind he thought he was saying "...that gravity is the ultimate cause of the universe." I think it's more likely that he was in some way pointing to gravity as being currently-existing evidence that we live in a universe that "created itself."

I am a mere dabbler in cosmological matters, but I do know that a recent extension of the Big Bang Theory is the Bubble Universe Model (a.k.a. the Self-Reproducing
Inflationary Universe Model), which posits that universes are spontaneously popping into existence all the "time" (i.e., other universes than our own have had their own "big bangs," even though the physical laws that govern those universes may differ from our own). Significantly, this theory claims to predict the existence of gravitational waves in our universe, which perhaps ties in to Hawking's statement (although I am not certain that the Bubble Model is the only one that makes that prediction). A seminal article on this by Andrei Linde in a 1998 edition of The Scientific American and is available here: http://www.mukto-mona.com/science/physics/Inflation_lself_prod_inde.pdf.

If something along these lines is not what Hawking was getting at, then perhaps his logic has degenerated past the point of coherence.
9/4/2010 10:13:30 AM
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atheocrat
All of which doesn't detract from one of the world's most eminent and brilliant scientist's hypothesis that *this* universe may have come into existence spontaneously. He draws no conclusions about the myriads of universes in a 'multiverse' that is spawning endless baby universes, according to one school of scientific thought.

The key to all this is a paradigm shift in Christian thinking. The evidence is not in favour of a personal, intervening deity involved in human affairs. Christians have gradually retreated from a multitude of claimed facts about alleged creation over the centuries since scientific investigation began to progress in leaps and bounds, and there is no reason why this should not be yet one more barricade the religious will, sooner or later, have to abandon - following on from the Earth being at the centre of the known universe, 10,000 year old creation, etc.

As for the Pope's visit to the UK, some 80% of Brits polled have revealed themselves to be rather disinterested in his visit. Some figures:

"The Pope generally responds wisely to problems in the world today"
AGREE 18%
DISAGREE 49%
DON'T KNOW 33%

"It is good to have a world leader like the Pope with no political affiliation who can speak out on moral issues"
AGREE 31%
DISAGREE 45%
DON'T KNOW 24%

"This is the first ever state visit of a Pope to Britain, so the taxpayer should contribute to the costs of his visit"
AGREE 11%
DISAGREE 77%
DON'T KNOW 12%

Clearly the British think the money could be put to better use, than gallivanting around the world attempting to rally the dwindling faithful!
9/4/2010 10:30:30 AM
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Trek To Rome - Stephen Hawking And Gravity
Pingback from Trek To Rome - Stephen Hawking And Gravity.
I’m glad Fr. Robert Barron of Word on Fire addressed this issue in his blog, because I was totally uninterested when I read that Stephen Hawking (arguably one of the most brilliant men on the planet) claimed the universe could invent itself out o...
9/4/2010 11:40:40 AM
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Paul Cat
I had been waiting for gravity to spontaneously create an xbox 360 in my living room for a while now. Eventually I gave up and just went to Best Buy and bought one.
9/4/2010 12:20:30 PM
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Mike
Thanks for the post - well put.
9/4/2010 12:48:54 PM
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Ron Henzel
atheocrat wrote:

"The evidence is not in favour of a personal, intervening deity involved in human affairs."

Oh, really? I suppose it all depends on whether individuals, appointing themselves as judges, determine which evidence to exclude from the "trial."
9/4/2010 12:52:22 PM
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Greg Stone
Ron, thanks for mentioning Linde. He is a leader in the field at this time.

Current discussions in physics reflect the huge problem with reconciling relativity with quantum physics.

At the end of the day, either one or the other or both will need to be shelved.

It is silly for Hawking to make any definitive remark regarding origins given the current unfinished state of physics.

The conflict between GR and QT has given rise to all manner of new work, such as string theory, theories of quantum gravity, and new theories of time.

Hawking's earlier theory was that given GR predicts a singularity but quantum theory says that at the Planck density significant fluctuations in the geometry of spacetime can be expected.

Hawking theorized that these fluctuations could be used to account for a probabilistic "popping" into existence of a universe. In other words, moving to the probability math of QT he figured one could expect the universe to be a matter of probability. Now it isn't, now it is.

However, the flaw was that such fluctuations required certain physical, spatial and temporal variables to exist before one had a state whose probability could be predicted.

I hope he isn't trotting out this tired argument based on a singularity and a quantum probability argument.
9/4/2010 6:49:14 PM
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Greg Stone
Some good resources for those wishing to study up on these arguments:

The Trouble with Physics - Lee Smolin

The End of Time — Julian Barbour

The Inflationary Universe - Alan Guth (Original work that made big bang popular.)

Three Roads to Quantum Gravity — Lee Smolin

Relativity Visualized — Epstein

Supersymmetry - Gordan Kane

Superstrings — F. David Peat

The Undivided Universe — David Bohm (Math heavy)

Of course there are many others, but these are a few I found helpful.

As well as ...

The History of the Universe in a Nutshell — Hawking
9/4/2010 6:56:46 PM
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Miami305
to Esther:

I am not ridiculing Dr. Stephen Hawking. He is making philosophical pronouncements that doesn't sound reasonable. That's all. I say that with all due respect. Maybe he made a blunder. Perhaps he didn't mean to say that the law of gravity has brought this universe into existence from nothing. The law of gravity is part of the material universe, so I am unable to see how that can create something out of nothing. Perhaps in the context of the multiple universes, it could probably make sense. Maybe that's what he meant. Of course, positing multiple universes still begs the question, what is the origin of all these universes? Maybe our definition of universe is not right. A universe, by its very definition, is about all that exists. So perhaps, if one were to accept the idea of multiple universes, we should call them dimensions. Perhaps there may be a better word. Maybe our dimension came about because of other dimensions. The Universe should then be defined that way because we are talking about all things that exist.

Fr. Barron is right when he says that scientists should continue doing what they do best: science. Once again, this is no disrespect to Dr. Stephen Hawking. As a student of science, I know we can be very bad students of philosophy. I always ask some of my friends who study philosophy to help me clarify some things.

I like your analogy of the oven baked cookies. Now I am craving some cookies.
9/4/2010 7:27:50 PM
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Brian Cook
Who here is able to address atheocrat's claims about scientific knowledge and scientific evidence necessarily pushing out faith in God?
9/5/2010 7:05:45 AM
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Jugglable
It's too bad that the best known-atheists in the world are not philosophers, but scientists. It takes a certain arrogance for a scientist to suddenly feel compelled to pontificate on philosophical issues. Atheist philosopher said that Hawking's argument for atheism in "A Brief History of Time" is the most embarrassing argument ever made for atheism. This is Stephen Hawking we're talking about here, a brilliant mind. But when he starts trying to do philosophy his insights are no more valuable than that of a layman.
9/5/2010 9:29:26 AM
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Sean Murphy
I converted to presbyterianism last year from the RCC. Just to say that its great to see such winsome voices still in their.
9/5/2010 10:59:48 AM
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Stephen
Atheocrat, so what? The value of all things is not determined by polls. British evaluations about the Pope and religion in general tell us something about the British, which we know already - namely that a great many are not interested in religion and that "No Popery" is still a national motto.
9/5/2010 12:24:08 PM
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Greg Stone
Just read an excerpt in the WSJ, Weekend Journal section, by Hawking re Why God Did Not Create the Universe.

Basically, he uses the multiverse idea to argue that, given there are many universes, it is a matter of probability that a universe like ours would appear.

He uses this argument to dismiss the weak and strong anthropic principles.

In other words, he dismisses the argument that this universe was specially created to make life possible, as now we attribute its existence to quantum-style probability— i.e. if a large number of universes pop into existence there is probability this particular universe would happen.

It is a weak argument that skirts the issue with a math sleight-of-hand that does not hold up.

Sad that someone thought publishing this piece of his work would add to the discussion. It discredits an otherwise notable career.
9/5/2010 3:16:19 PM
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ScribbleHeart
Very well put, Father Barron! Another great post.
9/5/2010 6:04:33 PM
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Carl R Smith
The amazing thing is that people keep buying his books!
Nutshell history indeed. I suspect Mr. Hawking is hoping against hope that the God he denies will not hold a grudge when he gets to explain his 'theory' in person.
9/5/2010 6:23:18 PM
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Bill
Actually, being one of the eminent thinkers of our time, he is qualified to speak about science as well as philosophy. And probably more so than you. Do you seriously think that just because you went through years of Theology that your views of philosophy are the correct one? Isn't it far more likely that people who study the universe are more likely to come up with better answers that introspective clergymen?

Scientists make far less silly statements than bishops, popes, or priests. Go ahead and mock science--it will stand the test of time while your petty self-centred and conceited religions vanish like all other man-made superstitions. No one worships Zeus anymore, and in time no one will worship Jehovah or Jesus Christ either.

Ah, the arrogance of the religious!
9/6/2010 9:14:02 AM
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tomjoel
To Mark and Carl R Smith:

Why the giddiness at the thought of Hawking meeting his maker? I expect that Hawking will benefit from God's mercy just as much as the rest of us. Maybe such remarks ought to be saved for a blog a little less thoughtful than WOF.
9/6/2010 9:47:25 AM
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atheocrat
Must say I'm disappointed, if hardly surprised, at all the conclusion-jumping and gratuitous, uninformed slights above. Two things for all you Christians to ponder on...

First of all Hawking's position on the supernatural hasn't changed in decades. As I tried to explain in my original comment, Hawking is simply following up on progress in theories on the multiverse which, by definition, would mean that *this* universe did not require the intervention of a deity. More specifically he writes elsewhere in his book ""According to M-theory, ours is not the only universe. Instead M-theory predicts that a great many universes were created out of nothing. Their creation does not require the intervention of some supernatural being or god."

Comments laughing at Hawking, and questioning where gravity came from, do nothing to demonstrate that Christians have even got so much as a basic, superficial grasp of M-theory.

Secondly, as Christian writer Jason Boyett wrote in the Guardian piece on this issue today, "you inspire me, Mr. Hawking, and your contributions to our world deserve a whole lot better than our mockery. I hope you're wrong about the universe not needing God. But if it turns out you're correct, you have my respect for helping us figure out the amazing environment in which we live. Thank you."

At least there is one Christian who abides by the tenets of his faith to the extent of showing humility, respect and equanimity, in his reaction. That is, those tenets that one has to cherry pick from the more acceptable face to the Bible, of course.
9/6/2010 3:07:33 PM
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atheocrat
Must say I'm disappointed, if hardly surprised, at all the conclusion-jumping and gratuitous, uninformed slights above. Two things for all you Christians to ponder on...

First of all Hawking's position on the supernatural hasn't changed in decades. As I tried to explain in my original comment, Hawking is simply following up on progress in theories on the multiverse which, by definition, would mean that *this* universe did not require the intervention of a deity. More specifically he writes elsewhere in his book ""According to M-theory, ours is not the only universe. Instead M-theory predicts that a great many universes were created out of nothing. Their creation does not require the intervention of some supernatural being or god."

Comments laughing at Hawking, and questioning where gravity came from, do nothing to demonstrate that Christians have even got so much as a basic, superficial grasp of M-theory.

Secondly, as Christian writer Jason Boyett wrote in the Guardian piece on this issue today, "you inspire me, Mr. Hawking, and your contributions to our world deserve a whole lot better than our mockery. I hope you're wrong about the universe not needing God. But if it turns out you're correct, you have my respect for helping us figure out the amazing environment in which we live. Thank you."

At least there is one Christian who abides by the tenets of his faith to the extent of showing humility, respect and equanimity, in his reaction. That is, those tenets that one has to cherry pick from the more acceptable face to the Bible, of course.
9/6/2010 3:08:50 PM
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Greg
Bill and Atheocrat, perhaps you are jumping to conclusions.

The critique of Hawking does not depend on a theological view, it fails solely on the basis of science alone.

You are right about Hawking not changing his stance for years. And his argument did not work when it was first posited.

I spent months in a discussion group with physicists and mathematicians who were attempting to do exactly what Hawking has done here... publish a book with a scientific proof that confirms there is no need for a creator.

The primary writer, a physicist, used Hawking's premise and argument as the basis for his book.

The argument did not stand up. I was able to show how it was flawed from the outset on a purely scientific basis.

Anyone can walk that same path again and end up with the same result. The science does not support the argument. I fear that those who will herald the statement are those who do not understand the science.

Not only does the science not work, but what is really taking place is that a philosophical view, with its philosophical premises, is being advanced in a stealth manner.

At the end of the day, both the science and the metaphysical argument advanced by Hawking does not stand up.

This is all about a desperation to do away with any concept of the supernatural. Rather than admonish Christians, it may be more appropriate to admonish atheists for desperate measures.
9/6/2010 6:51:51 PM
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Jason
There are few things funnier than an atheist telling a Christian what the tenets of their religion is.

Predicting that a great deal of universes were created out of nothing is a philosophically vacuous as claiming one universe was created out of nothing.

<i>Ex nihilo nihil fit.</i>

Now instead of laughing at Hawking, we can laugh at you. Isn't that great?

Bill, one of the fun quotes from the Scopes trial was that of a physicist. Something along the lines of "evolution is as essential to biology as the ether is to physics."

Scientists may make as many silly comments as philosophers, but atheists commenting on theist's blogs make far more. What's next? A Richard Dawkins quote?
9/6/2010 8:14:27 PM
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atheocrat
Stephen,

Well that might be what the poll tells you, but it tells me that the British, along with other Europeans, are beginning to see the inconsistencies, contradictions and downright illogicalities and mistakes in the biblical account of reality, and are sensibly turning their backs on this and other versions of theism. Whether there is ultimately a truth that could inadequately be summed up as 'supernatural' may never be known, but the myriads of gods created in man's image are certainly nowhere even close to the answer.
9/6/2010 11:58:04 PM
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atheocrat
(Reply to Ron)

I wrote: "The evidence is not in favour of a personal, intervening deity involved in human affairs."

You wrote: "Oh, really? I suppose it all depends on whether individuals, appointing themselves as judges, determine which evidence to exclude from the "trial."

Theists have been retreating from all manner of claimed 'religious truths' about the natural world. So what do we have left? Alleged personal interaction with God, that relies on subjective experience explainable by a variety of psychological mechanisms. Biblical 'inerrancy', something that is looking increasingly fragile, and downright foolish to non-believers. Miracles? Something that the Christian god seems disinclined to mete out to amputees and (complete) paraplegics. Apparently they are undeserving.

Personally I am always open to evidence, so long as it adds something concrete to the debate. Unfortunately I have yet to see anything remotely credible in support of theism. Deism is a separate issue, and my original remark made it clear that the evidence I was referring to was not in favour of "a personal, intervening deity involved in human affairs".

It should be realised by Christians that when the likes of Hawking, Dawkins, Einstein etc. refuse to exclude a supernatural origin they are limiting the possibility of a metaphysical to that evoked by deism. All without exception have made it clear that the omnibenevolent etc. personal intervening variety is simply a case of man creating god in his own image.
9/7/2010 5:38:05 AM
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Rob
Atheocrat - I wonder what it is that draws you to comment on Christian posts like this one? The Holy Spirit, or is that a "personal intervening deity" you'd be uncomfortable to acknowledge?
9/7/2010 10:05:46 AM
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Ron Henzel
Atheocrat,

If one begins with the presupposition that the universe did not require a creator, one will inevitably construct a theory consistent with that presupposition. That's the way it always works; not the other way around. If you believe that Hawking or any other scientist approaches ultimate questions with no bias, you are deluding yourself. And if you believe that you are unbiased in this discussion (or as you put it, "always open to evidence") you are deluding yourself even more. Ultimately, evidence alone never persuades anyone that the God of the Bible is true, even though the evidence is more than sufficient for the truly unbiased.
9/7/2010 8:11:35 PM
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Gravity
Over the years, there have been controversies between scientific research and religion. The Grand Design has once again touched this issue. Gravity is what created the whole world instead of The Lord if you ask Hawking. Anyone opposed to Hawking's ideas will say that comprehending God’s role within the universe does not come through scientific research. I admit that I sometimes find myself torn between these two but can you blame me for what I can hear and see?
9/8/2010 2:50:01 AM
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Greg
Gravity, a study of gravity will quickly disabuse you of any thought that Hawking is on to something. You will no longer be torn.

The problem within the general public is a lack of appreciation of just how "unfinished" science is when it comes to cosmology.

If the public had any idea of the crude level of the discipline they would only chuckle at Hawking's announcement.

(For example, one reason for the new multiverse theory is that actual observations differed from those predicted by the prior inflationary universe (big bang) theory based on Guth's et al's work. The amount of mass and energy in the universe was off by factors of ten or more! In other words, they are in a dark room stumbling about at this time.)

The mismatch between General Relativity and Quantum Theory has turned the discipline upside down. They know they do not have it right...and there is much fishing about. See "What is Wrong with Physics" by the excellent physicist Lee Smolin for more on this.
9/8/2010 12:09:14 PM
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Paolo
I don't know why my previous post has been deleted: perhaps too aggressive? In this case, I apologize.
I'll try to be more polite.

Atheocrat wrote: " Alleged personal interaction with God, that relies on subjective experience explainable by a variety of psychological mechanisms."
On this, I'd like to ask Atheocrat how he rationalizes Fatima.

Then he writes: "Miracles? Something that the Christian god seems disinclined to mete out to amputees and (complete) paraplegics. Apparently they are undeserving."
On this other point, I ask again what he thinks about the miracle in Calanda (or others I could quote).

IMO, these are not 'out of theme' questions - even if the issue at hand is Hawking's case - because Atheocrat himself is making a broader case and ask for something 'remotely credible'.

PS: You will be patient with my English, I hope: it's not my native language.
9/9/2010 6:20:07 AM
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atheocrat
Greg:

It always depresses me how some theists with some scientific knowledge freely scoff at, in this case, one of the world's greatest scientific minds. Surely only someone with an agenda would be so dismissive. Your comments are full of assertions, straw men, and patronising put-downs, with little or nothing of substance to back them up other than exhortations to read a list of books.

Once again you are missing my point. Hawking is saying that *this* universe does not necessary require a god in the theistic sense, ie a knowing creator. That is

indis*****ble. What he is NOT saying is that there is no 'god'. Rattling on about how science is only providing hazy theories that may yet be supplanted is a pointless truism - that is almost a definition of the scientific method and Hawking would be the first to agree with you. It certainly does not constitute a convincing argument against his ideas. As Hawking said (paraphrasing) many years ago, "call the laws of the universe 'god' if you wish". However such an unthinking god would be utterly unaware of man's existence, and would be of no use to us (in terms of fulfilling the numerous roles he allegedly has in theism).

Science is 'unfinished' when it comes to cosmology? Another truism! Strewth, if scientists had thought all physical processes were understood a few centuries ago, we would still be

being told by the religious establishment that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Fortunately they have carried on investigating, and one by one, theistic claims about the natural order

have gradually been demonstrated to be untrue. Biblical 'truths' have conveniently been retranslated as 'metaphor'. Whether the M-Theory multiverse approaches an adequate

explanation of the origin of *this* universe or not does not detract from the fact that scientists are homing in on this understanding, and when they do get close it is highly improbable that it will include a omnibenevolent, omniscent, omnipotent deity watching over mankind. I write "highly improbable" to avoid sounding too scathing about such anthropomorphised

hypotheses.

You wrote before:

"I spent months in a discussion group with physicists and mathematicians who were attempting to do exactly what Hawking has done here... publish a book with a scientific proof that

confirms there is no need for a creator..... The argument did not stand up. I was able to show how it was flawed from the outset on a purely scientific basis."

1. Do you have a qualification in the physical sciences? Have you been published, peer-reviewed?
2. Would you care to demonstrate both to me and the remainder of the scientific establishment that have not been privy to your arguments just why his theories - I reiterate, theories -

are flawed, rather than making bland assertions to that end?
3. Do you agree that at no point has Hawking rejected out of hand a god in the deist sense, and would you also agree that you are conflating the two (theism and deism)?

"At the end of the day, both the science and the metaphysical argument advanced by Hawking does not stand up."

Excuse me, but they do. All you need to do is replace the theists' god by the M-Theory multiverse as a factually/metaphysically necessary agency, ie physical laws existing 'necessarily,

by their very nature'. That explanation works, and by removing God/Zeus etc from the calculation we have a far simpler explanation than some timeless being caring about where men

put their penises and who wants us to behave ourselves in occasionally contrived and peculiar ways in order to go to some alternative reality after death, thereby fulfilling man's

egotistical desire for his individual soul to exist for ever. Funny coincidence, that.

To expand a little ref. Hawking, his hypothesis is just as useful in answering contingency and fine-tuning questions as the theist's explanation.

Brian:

"Who here is able to address atheocrat's claims about scientific knowledge and scientific evidence necessarily pushing out faith in God?" [in theist/Chritian sense]

Sadly no one has addressed that particular issue. Greg in particular has determinedly confused the two (theism/deism), despite both myself above, and Hawking, drawing a clear

distinction.

Ron:

No scientist is presupposing anything. Theists on the other hand presuppose that the Universe does require a creator. If degrees of bias are to be thrown in as a critique of scientists

and atheists, you are going to have a devil of a job persuading me that the scientist who works in a spirit of enquiry and according to the scientific method (all theories only stand up if

they are falsifiable etc) and the atheist who simply states that on the balance of evidence, he lacks belief in deities until he is convinced to the contrary by new discoveries or

interpretations, are more biased than theists who start from the premise that there is a god, only the Christian one at that, and that any gaps in understanding simply require plugging

by faith (bland and inadequate summing up I know, but it's close enough).

Rob: "Atheocrat - I wonder what it is that draws you to comment on Christian posts like this one? The Holy Spirit, or is that a "personal intervening deity" you'd be uncomfortable to

acknowledge?"

I debate on science, evolution, humanist, Christian, Buddhist and Moslem forums. As someone who by definition ('without belief') has considerably less preconceptions that believers

in any one domain or another, I find such discussions occasionally fascinating, sometimes illuminating, occasionally disappointing/worrying. I am concerned about the world and

consider various religious beliefs on balance to contribute in a major way to conflict, fear and misunderstanding. I am a secular humanist and my view is that such an approach is our

best hope for the future of mankind.

As for being 'uncomfortable' with the idea of a personal intervening deity, I have no idea why you should think that. On the contrary if such were to be true, that's fine by me, although 'it'

would have some awkward questions to answer ref. the problem of evil, etc. Condescending remarks clearly suggesting, without foundation, that I am somehow afraid of 'God', only

undermine your arguments. Still you're 'forgiven' - according to quantum mechanics everything that can happen will happen, in which case you are at this precise point in 'time', in

another reality, currently typing that my comments have persuaded you to renounce Christianity and that you have signed up as a Dawkins afficionado.

Jugglable:

Which atheist philosopher wrote that Hawking's arguments were "embarrassing"? A name and source would be appreciated.

Paolo:

I'll get back to you on the alleged Fatima experience and Calanda miracle if I may, and if not considered too off topic for this particular blog?
9/9/2010 9:17:35 AM
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Doug Stewart
How time repeats itself. Millennia ago scientists were no doubt ridiculed by theologians that “philosophized” that the Earth is round. Galileo was put under house arrest for proposing that the world isn’t at the center of the universe. And Charles Darwin’s discovery of bottom up, as opposed to top down design, evolution, is still denied today.

So Stephen Hawkins quote of, “Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing”, one would have though that theologians would have learned to keep their moths shut for fear of sounding ridiculous… again… and again… and…

Quoting Father Barron, “scientists tend to make lots of silly statements when they attempt to philosophize”. Implying that only those like him that are gifted with the powers of witchcraft, voodoo, and magic can tell us such things as, god injects a human “soul” into a zygote at the moment of conception, and god won’t allow two people of the same sex that love each other to get married, and the integrity of the Catholic church is more important than the sexual molestation of our children, and that condoms are bad, even if one partner is known to have AIDS.

Real brain twisters like, space and time are interconnected so high speeds and immense gravity alter the passage of time itself, (what?), the double slit experiment where electrons can behave as either waves or particles depending on if a conscious entity is observing them, (what? what?), or when two particles are ‘entangled’, they can theoretically be on opposite sides of the universe but behave as if they were together, (what? what? what?). So Father Barron’s philosophical quote of “from nothing comes nothing” sounds just as ignorant as saying, “what goes up, must come down”, in reference to the Voyager space craft.

Our brains were designed by natural selection over millions of years to serve us well as hunter gatherers. The comprehension of concepts such as cosmology and quantum physics is only a lucky byproduct of that evolved intelligence. We can’t honestly comprehend times in excess of more than a few human generations, or distances more than one could naturally travel. But theoretical physics pushes us beyond that. Our brains can’t comprehend a ‘place’ without space or time so it’s an arrogant person that can so easily deny it in the face of mounting evidence, and an ignorant person that demands everything, including gravity, needs “contingency”.

The only true answer to the question, “why is there something rather than nothing” is, “nobody knows”. Science is starting to discover that, contrary to human intuition, “nothing” is unstable. Religion is still flogging the medieval dead horse of “magic man did it”, and “magic man doesn’t need an explanation”. Science is turning to evidence, such as the $10 billion Large Hadron Collider experiment. Conversely, Father Barron is trying to make the existence of god NOT a scientific question. He relies on fuzzy “metaphysics”, vague rhetoric and the degradation of science (by calling the need for evidence before acceptance an “ism”), as his tools. But god’s ‘gap’, continues to get even smaller.
9/12/2010 10:37:37 AM
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Greg
Atheocrat, my comments were clear, to the point, and accurate.

You can be depressed if you want, but it counts for little unless you can demonstrate that what I have said is incorrect.

Hawking has made arguments that are not supported by existing science. Period.

Current science does not make the case for the non-existence of a Creator, nor does it make a case that precludes the need for a Creator.

Science does not support the assertions Hawking makes. He has made a giant leap from highly speculative theoretical physics to unsupported statements about metaphysics. He can speculate all he wants, but it does not support any claim.

In addition, he has made claims both previously and currently regarding quantum spontaneous creation. This idea does not hold up on the basis of simple logic alone — get out the equations and you will see the spontaneous quantum fluctuations of which he speaks are contingent up prior conditions. That is simply fact.

The agenda lies with Hawking not me. I am simply pointing out the reality of what he has done. You may not like that ... but you have not shown otherwise.

Spend time studying up on the material involved. You will find, actually, that not even Hawking disagrees with my analysis. (He will most likely tell you about pressure from a publisher to put out a work. And he will regard it as harmless entertaining speculation.)
9/12/2010 11:51:14 PM
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atheocrat
Thank you, Greg, for not addressing a single point I made, and not answering a single question put to you.

As you seem to suggest that one of the world's greatest scientists of the past 50 years has produced a half-baked theory that is unsupported by current scientific thought, I asked for your own credentials in the physical sciences, permitting you to level the bland criticisms at Hawking at which you tantalisingly no more than hint. You have pointedly avoided an answer.

Vague assertions, appeals to authority, straw man misrepresentations of Hawking's actual position, amongst other sophisms, do not constitute argument.

The M-Theory 11 dimensional multiverse structure spontaneously spawning 10^500 universes, roughly equivalent to the number of every atom that has ever existed in this universe, is a theory worthy of a little more attention than the scorn you heap on Hawking's interpretation of the data.

At least Hawking doesn't fall into the same trap as you - ie making misrepresentative statements about Hawking's position, assertions as to the falseness of his views. He posits a theory, and - read my lips - at no point states that god(s) is/are impossible, just unnecessary in explaining *this* universe.

Oh, and Doug Stewart - spot on summing up.
9/13/2010 3:50:00 PM
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Doug Stewart
Greg

I'm sure Atheocrat can speak for himself, but your statements are blatant lies. You're not a Theoretical Physicist and neither am I, but I challenge you to find me a (non religious) web site that indicate that quantum events aren't contingent.

Besides, Hawking isn't the only Physicist that proclaims that something can come from nothing. See Lawrence Krauss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Doug
9/13/2010 7:12:01 PM
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Greg Stone
Atheocrat, I can see you are trying to use the argument from authority... but to no avail.

You will not find scientists honoring Hawking's speculation about God as anything more than speculation.

And you will find scientists understand that Hawking is talking about unsupported theories, which do not yet have support or verification.

They understand the coffee table speculation in which he is engaged, and they treat it as such. The dangerous aspect of such pronouncements comes when those with little science background do not realize the context or nature of the statements and then attribute to them more than they are.

This gets into the "argument from authority" problem, where the lay public argues "he is one of the great scientists so whatever he says must be valid." Even if they do not actually understand what he is saying.

On the other hand, anyone with at least a familiarity with the topic, understands both the speculative and unverified nature of the science involved and the speculative and "blue sky" nature of Hawking's comments.

While I am not a theoretical physicist, I do have enough background to grasp the context of the work and its status. My father was a nuclear physicist, so I grew up playing around a nuclear reactor, and have had a love of the subject my whole life. I was fortunate to have Frank Oppenheimer as a physics professor in college, and lately have taken a course in String Theory at UCLA. So, contrary to your assertion, I am not totally unversed in the topic.

And I suggested a reading list that would help you gain a foundation that would make your arguments more accurate.
9/15/2010 1:38:55 PM
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9/15/2010 4:24:11 PM
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