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Fr. Barron comments on Abortion: Shocking Numbers out of New York
Yes, yes, yes, and...
[Since my calling is apparently to spend a fair amount of time opening cans full of worms...] part of the dialogue that needs to happen is within the Church about our outrageous lack of charity toward pro-Choice peoples and some abortion providers. Most discussion in the pro-life camp is accompanied by the assumption that everyone who is pro-choice is either actively worshipping Satan, in it to exploit babies and women for money, or both. Father Thomas J. Euteneuer's book, "Exorcism and the Church Militant," it's subsequent and abrupt cessation of publication, and Father Euteneuer's rapid reassignment to a post out of the limelight have been hushed up and smoothed over in patterns similar to those seen in the sex abuse scandals. Many of the most obsessed "Pro-Life" activists, people whom to me seem to be motiviated far more by prurience and egotism than by piety, insist on repeating ad nauseum Father Euteneuer's claims that many or even most abortion providers and clinic staff are actively worshipping Satan, are becoming pregnant on purpose to use babies' bodies for sacrifices, and other ugly and thoroughly unsubstantiated versions of the same old Blood Libel in a new guise. Why hasn't the Church publically condemned the book, and instructed the faithful to not read it, or, to read it along with more reasonable and more greatly substantiated rebuttals?
We can learn a lot from Focus on the Family in this regard. Recently, they've helped publicize Abby Johnson's book "UnPlanned," about her leaving Planned Parenthood and becoming a pro-life activist. It is an extraordinary, wise, and compassionate work, and shows the level of charity we should all strive to achieve. As she says, "Oh how we love to vilify our opponents. … How easy to assume that those on "our" side are right and wise and good; how those on "their" side are treacherous and foolish and deceptive. I have found right and good and wisdom on both sides. I have found foolishness and treachery and deception on both sides as well. … To this day I have friends on both sides of this polarizing debate. … And even more shocking – we have far more in common with the "other" side than we might imagine. … In all likelihood, as you look through the fence, you see faulty thinking and harmful behavior on the other side. Here's my question for you: are you ready to look through the fence and see goodness, compassion, generosity, and self-sacrifice on the other side?"
Prior to my re-conversion to Catholicism, I spent several decades in the pro-Choice camp, and was even a clinic escort in the midst of 1980s bullying and death threats. My experience matches Johnson's -- the people I knew who were pro-choice (including the Neo-Pagans) were so because of their ethical beliefs and because of their compassion, not because of anything involving some extremist mythologies about Satanism. I have seen, and continue to see, courage and compassion, and derision and selfishness, on all sides of this question. I think Catholics can do far, far better than to indulge in childish diatribes about how pro-Choice people have "hardened hearts" and are supposedly actively worshipping evil.
If we want the most fervently pro-choice women to understand where and how they have erred, we have to be there to support them. Anyone who eventually comes to their senses on this issue has to go through a necessary but horrible moment where they cry to themselves, "My God, what have I done?" If the only people around on the "other side" are too caught up in egotistical war cries about "hardened hearts" and "Satan," who will these people go to when they can no longer live in the pro-choice camp? If all women on the cusp see is obsessive, childish, extremist rhetoric about abortion, how will they find compatriots in the work to both provide for women's welfare and the welfare of the babies who might otherwise be killed? Thank God for Feminists for Life and the Susan B. Anthony list, and the thousands of people on the front lines at crisis pregnancy centers helping the women and their children, but these are not the loudest voices, especially in Catholicism. Has anyone from Feminists for Life or the Anthony List been on Fox News, or been interview by Al Kresta, or shown up on EWTN with anything close to the frequency of Father Euteneuer and similar extremist activists?
I was a clinic escort primarily because I did not like to see anyone screaming at and, literally, pushing women around. I still don't like these things. I also don't like to see sloppy thinking and self-indulgent verbal abuse, even if I happen to agree with some of the stances of the person doing the abusing. There is much the most vocal pro-life activist Catholics need to learn; their abusive and extremist behavior and opinions are helping prolong this holocaust as surely as any sets of laws or cultural assumptions. When called on their behavior and obsessions, they immediately default to the line that they are "just praying in front of clinics." Such dishonesty is dangerous and grotesquely counterproductive, and it's high time it stopped. We have far more important work to do.
1/24/2011 5:51:49 PM
I hear you, but maybe one of the reason's you're here, like me, is that Fr Barron hasn't got that 'edge' that many Catholics and their blogs have?
As you know, he's no heterodox compromiser, but shows both compassion and charity, but also a far more nuanced and profound view of many issues. Yet, he's always able to show his love for the Church in its fullest sense as more than a body of docrine.
For example, I sometimes wonder how much of the 'Latin Mass' advocacy, is actually about taste rather than substance, or the heresy of integrism. Is it a culturally 'high-brow' snobbery, dressed up as piety?
Over on 'Insight Scoop' (which sometimes goes beyond what I would call 'the bounds of decency' on these very issues (abortion, Right-Wing politics, and free-market economics), and of course the blog of the publisher of Euteneuer's book, posted a quote the other day from Chesterton's book, 'Heretics', here:
I'm in England, and it's interesting that, unlike other books from Ignatius Press which are always listed pre-publication, Euteneuer's book was neither listed, nor available here, as if it had been banned.
I wonder how many claim orthodoxy rather than heresy, as in Chesterton's example, and, like the heretics, are looking around for applause, too...?
1/25/2011 3:39:14 AM
After reflecting on this piece, it struck me that many of the atheists, with which I (try to) engage in discussion, are extremely dismissive of what they see as the stupidity of believers, and also how believers should be removed from the public square and meaningful discourse. But more worryingly, their dismissiveness of what, and who, they see as stupid (aka anyone who disagrees).
At times, their rhetoric is so strong, one wonders whether they would favour 'intellectual cleansing'. Certainly, Lady Warnock sounds as if she's the re-incarnation of Margaret Sanger on that score.
Here's part of a recent interview by an Evangelical theologian, Dr Nick Spencer, and Mary Warnock:
...MW I think the number of ill-educated people who have abortions is probably equal or nearly equal to the number of ill-educated people who have illegitimate babies because they wouldn’t even contemplate having an abortion. There are thousands of girls who become pregnant and wouldn’t think of having an abortion because they’re not interested. They’ve got no future anyway and a future with a baby is to them better than a future without a baby. They’ve got someone to love, they’ve got someone who’ll love them.
NS But is that not a good thing?
MW No, I think it’s a terrible thing, because the joy of having a baby may wear off after it’s not a baby but is a yobbish teenager, and we’ve all got to look after these persons. The social consequences are awful.
NS Are you saying that those children born to the lower socio-economic grades are somehow less welcome in society?
MW It’s not that they’re not welcome in society. They just have a worse time. They’re educationally worse off, they’re the underclass, they’re financially worse off, they’re the people who don’t get jobs, they’re the people who suffer."...
Notice, particularly, that she doesn't deny the assertion of the last question...
1/25/2011 9:04:28 AM
That is a disturbing statistic. While, as Father Barron points out, there are some women who choose abortion only in dire cir*****stances, most of the abortion problem is based on a devaluation of unborn human life. The argument for a woman's choice always unravels in the case of infants, since that age of children is considered to be valuable human life. Of course, many pro-choice advocates claim that born life is qualitatively different from unborn life, yet history reveals the arbitrariness of that distinction. Indeed, infanticide was accepted and prevalent in much of the pagan world because infants were considered to be qualitatively different and less valuable than older children, and only Christianity wiped out that heinous practice.
Both abortion and infanticide stem from a view of human value that has been divorced from God. Elizabeth Anscombe explains in her famous essay "Contraception and Chastity":
"What people are for is, we believe, like guided missiles, to home in on God, God who is the one truth it is infinitely worth knowing, the possession of which you could never get tired of, like the water which if you have you can never thirst again, because your thirst is slaked forever and always. It's this potentiality, this incredible possibility, of the knowledge of God of such a kind as even to be sharing in his nature, which Christianity holds out to people; and because of this potentiality every life, right up to the last, must be treated as precious. Its potentialities in all things the world cares about may be slight; but there is always the possibility of what it's for. We can't ever know that the time of possibility of gaining eternal life is over, however old, wretched, ‘useless’ someone has become."
So, a person's value is based not on age, material cir*****stances, productivity, or even birth, but rather on the potential of that person to participate in God. All human life has that potential.
Lastly, because the precedent has been set in this thread for quoting Chesterton, here is what he has to say about this issue:
"[M]y contempt boils over into bad behaviour when I hear the common suggestion that a birth is avoided because people want to be ‘free’…Now a child is the very sign and sacrament of personal freedom. He is a fresh free will added to the wills of the world; he is something that his parents have freely chosen to produce and which they freely agree to protect. They can feel that any amusement he gives (which is often considerable) really comes from him and from them, and from nobody else. He has been born without the intervention of any master or lord. He is a creation and a contribution; he is their own creative contribution to creation" ("Babies and Distributism" from The Well and the Shallows).
1/25/2011 9:39:21 AM
Paul R. said, "...maybe one of the reason's you're here, like me, is that Fr Barron hasn't got that 'edge' that many Catholics and their blogs have?"
Anybody know how to say "Heck, yeah!" in Latin?
I found the whole text of the Anscombe essay (and many thanks to Tristan M for this tip) here: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/AnscombeChastity.php. (That's the orthodoxytoday dot org site, in case the link doesn't go through.)
1/25/2011 11:39:19 AM
This is, as usual, such a wonderful commentary on the genocide of our most vulnerable brothers and sisters. Fr. Barron, keep preaching in your articulate, intelligent, and solid style. Priests like you are the future. Confession: I too feel that cowardice, that desire for keeping the peace and not causing confrontation when someone makes insane claims about life and the Church. I can share that burden with you.
1/25/2011 1:22:49 PM
Did you even read Father Euteneur's book? It just doesn't sound like the same one I just read.
1/25/2011 4:45:50 PM
D. Richard: I've read as much as I could get my hands on (about twenty pages of excerpts) and listened to his podcast on the same subject. He claims that neo-Pagan ceremonies devoted to Artemis are "Satan worshipping" and claims that it's common practice for employees in abortion clinics to become pregnant on purpose so that they can sacrifice their babies to Satan. He condemns everyone, literally, in the abortion business as being, again literally, possessed by Satan. He's not being metaphorical or using symbolism. He absolutely thinks everyone who works in an abortion clinic is possessed. I've not seen any retraction of these extreme claims, and there is nowhere even the smallest implication that he's speaking in any way but literally.
As for the truth about neo-Pagans (I'm speaking from two decades of personal experience, here), it's the same as the truth about members of any other non-Christian religion; they have part of the Truth. Concluding -- with absolutely no hard, verifiable evidence -- that neo-Pagans are all Satanists makes no more sense than concluding that all Hindus or Native Americans or Jews are all Satanists. He made this claim up entirely from his own mythologies and assumptions. There are reasons why HLI pulled both of Father Euteneuer's books, and refuse to even begin to discuss why. (Why the Diocese of Palm Beach, FL has not issued some sort of public clarification, however, I do not understand.) This level of scandal and libel against normal, well-intentioned people who happen to be wrong is absolutely unacceptable. Read Abby Johnson's book if you want the truth about pro-choice people; many are deeply ethical and deeply compassionate. Telling horrible, hurtful, and grotesquely inaccurate lies about them only perpetuates injustice and pushes a resolution of the abortion horror even further away.
1/25/2011 5:56:57 PM
While I appreciate your talk, I was disappointed to hear that you didn't engage with that lady in the cab. It was the perfect time and she surely would have learned a lot.
1/25/2011 6:14:37 PM
I'm so happy Fr. Barron has commented on this. I live and work in Los Angeles County, where over 50,000 abortions occur each year. I work in a pregnancy crisis resource center, where we give facts to women, mostly young and Hispanic (our center is located in East L.A.)about the choice they are having to make. (On top of many other subjects)
While I fully understand the state we currently are in, our country is actively seeking abortions as a simple solution, I do believe the tide is turning.
MANY young adults are noticing the emotional effects abortion is causing our women And how abortion ultimately allows "us" to use women as a perpetual sex object. This young generation is fed up. We have noticed that our brothers and sisters are not on this earth: The Lost Generation!
Truly, I believe these young Pro-Lifers are slowly changing America's mind.
Also- in regards to targeting non-whites: this is terribly true. You can see how it began with Sanger, but looking at it logically today, Planned Parenthood and other abortion clinics set up specifically in low-income neighborhoods. They prey on these people because they know they can. They scare them into thinking they aren't able to afford a child, so it's better just to have an abortion, "An easy fix." And they tell us its a RIGHT! We then believe a RIGHT is a GOOD.
And now I went off on a tangent..
Thank you Fr. Barron for bringing to light this abortion epidemic.
But we just have to keep praying and get active! If nothing else, pray outside of an abortion clinic. Pray for those that are working in the building, that their hearts be converted. Pray that the women going through this crisis be open to the life they are carrying. And pray for the unborn.
1/25/2011 6:22:22 PM
Please read this article about NYC abortion doctor. It is just unbelievable!!!!
1/25/2011 6:42:39 PM
I have a slight alteration of Kell's suggestion on who to engage. Rather than engaging "Pro-Choice" people I think the Church and the Pro-Life movement need to engage women.
I have previously heard the impact of abortion called the rape of a woman's mind rather than calling it a coarsing of our morals, as Father Barron does. The fact the some woman no longer struggle with the morality of abortion is, to me, unimportant as compared to the complete abandonment of responisbilty by Western governments on the abortion issue. Western governements and societies have cowardly allowed this life/death choice to be made by a single person within society. This is simplying wrong. Issues relating to life are usually decided by our governments. Life is usually protected by our Government. It is odd that some of our governments ban the death penalty but allow and thereby encourage abortions. Furthermore, how do these governments honestly expect women to obey our other laws and/or to take our other laws seriously when these same women have the power over life and death. This disease of abortion has truly poisoned the mind of those in the pro-choice movement.
To give birth to an unwanted child is surely a difficult life but the better answer to abortion is in providing more support to the new Mom and keeping the baby alive.
1/25/2011 7:02:58 PM
Dear Father Barron,
I know how busy your schedule is just from seeing your commentaries and speaking engagements posted here, there and everywhere; and, I know you are HUMAN . . . but . . . next time, in a cab or anywhere, no matter how fatigued you are, answer the dialog initiated and allow your compatriots to interject their knowledge also. You will always be 'ON', as you are our new Fulton Sheen . . . that African-American woman needed the benefit of your knowledge, (which I am sure, is still wanting). Next time you are in a cab with your colleagues, speak, mumble, gesture . . . and allow their voices to support you as you guide them.
1/25/2011 7:50:41 PM
There is a mind-blowing spiritual battle in our midst, and abortion is--at our time and place--ground zero. Just as all of creation that is joined with God rejoices at a single human conception, so do Satan and demons howl in protest and fury. These are not speculations or flowery language, this is the Catholic understanding of our experience. On their substantive points, those you criticize are actually correct, but if your criticism is one of their style then that's a different conversation.
In my three plus years of peaceful, prayerful sidewalk ministry, I've never seen my comrades act in the way you describe. In fact, it is pure grace that we don't all "break" and start shouting about "demons" and "baby murder". Of course, I've heard about abusive pro-life people, but I've never seen it. Also, since you are pleading for more charity and understanding, how about extending it to Fr. Euteneur, etc? You took some pretty wild and sweeping swings considering this is a "non-edgy" blog. Peace.
1/25/2011 8:08:53 PM
To the men in the audience:
Men, please take responsibility for your part in this problem.
Here are three ways you can help:
1. No pre-marital sex;
2. No use of contraceptions (helps to avoid accidental pregnancies by only having sex when you are prepared to accept the consequences of sex: babies);
3. No abandoning your spouse if she gets preganant.
I am sure there are others and i would be happy to hear them.
1/25/2011 8:18:27 PM
Can we please start letting the so called "Pro-choice" side that the choice was already made when they chose to have sex. We all know how a pregnancy occurs!
1/25/2011 9:20:06 PM
Let us all pray for an end to abortion
1/26/2011 5:59:14 AM
As a member of the medical community I have seen the AMA's complete avoidance of a discussion of abortion on demand which by the way they provide...Imagine if they did not!!
Modern medical practice makes abortion painless,sterile and clean for the mother and father...Historically it was very painful, bloody, with infection and likely sterilized or killed the mother..So these women fought back!! when husbands,fathers, boyfriends insisted on abortion for convenience with no possiblilty of children in the future.
Which one of us is alive today because things were easy and convenient for our parents?
AMA...stand up against this holocaust!!
1/26/2011 8:07:15 AM
I hear you, Mary, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The AMA, like the medical business in general, is driven primarily by the bottom line. Hence, the maiming and deadly horrors of so-called "weight loss surgery," and the push for risky and expensive screening tests like routine colonoscopies, even though safer, much cheaper and equally effective alternatives (i.e. the fecal occult blood test) are readily available. [Don't get me started...]
There is a group of pro-Life Ob/Gyns at http://www.aaplog.org/ -- they rock!
1/26/2011 9:27:20 AM
Father Barron hit on something when he talk about something being not quite right with the genocide that i s happening in the black culture. A very informative video about this is on Maafa 21 - a do*****entary about just this. They have a website and you can watch 10 minute segments on youtube. Just type in Maafa 21.
1/26/2011 10:28:11 AM
I have never been pro-choice - in my youth, if a person I dated got pregnant, it was expected she'd have an abortion. Once I got married (and with the help of sonograms) I began to realize it wasn't a "thing" in the woman's tummy, it was a human being. Once you personalize it, "it" becomes a human and you can't kill a human!
1/26/2011 1:17:13 PM
I have to comment on my own experiences with the pro-choice crowd at the all-girl Catholic High School where I teach. The faculty and most of the administration subscribe to the "soft approach" which means never saying anything that might offend or upset someone who has had an abortion, takes birth control pills, etc. For 8 years, I let myself be sucked in to this destructive mentality. The success of this approach became disgustingly obvious at the last presidential election when over 75% of the students body and faculty voted for our radically pro-abortion president. The pro-choice people were blatantly rude and obnoxious to any student who professed a pro-life viewpoint. The Counseling department actively teaches birth control and recommends Plan B for students whose birth control fails. The head of the counseling department screamed (student words) at the girls who were sitting at a table with pro-life information fliers on it the day before 15 of us left for the March for Life. I am so upset at this deliberate choice for darkness that I find myself wanting to cry whenever I think about it. I do fight back. I do teach FACTUALLY CORRECT rather than POLITICALLY CORRECT truths, drawing on my 32 years as a labor and delivery nurse and now 10 years of teaching science. To those of you advocating a gentle approach - it's not working, lives are being destroyed. We are being mowed down by the ones who want to keep the status quo and continue to justify their own behaviors.
1/26/2011 5:46:31 PM
Re Kell's comment: "He claims that neo-Pagan ceremonies devoted to Artemis are "Satan worshipping" and claims that it's common practice for employees in abortion clinics to become pregnant on purpose so that they can sacrifice their babies to Satan. He condemns everyone, literally, in the abortion business as being, again literally, possessed by Satan. He's not being metaphorical or using symbolism. He absolutely thinks everyone who works in an abortion clinic is possessed."
I have read the book and I would say that is not a fair or accurate characterization of what he wrote.
1/26/2011 5:54:23 PM
michael jaffray king
Abortion... God and the Muslims..
Father Robert Barron's latest talk on the shocking statistics coming out of New York is just that....... really shocking!!!!!!..
However here is a thought for you all...
Maybe most Non whites and slightly off whites can be encouraged and tricked into aborting their children and thereby help keep our Western White majority over the non white population, but there is an exception and this exception is very noticeable here in Germany......
They are winning hand over fist through the birth canal.
They are extremely anti abortion..
To me it seems that God could be using them as a judgement against our watered down Christianity.
Thank God for Catholicism, being so much on the right track!!!!...With all the right teaching.... At least in its doctrine if not by all its participants.
God is not mocked..
Maybe judgement will come through the followers of Mohammed.
If we neglect THAT GREAT WAY OF SALVATION THROUGH THE CROSS OF CHRIST, and through the Church that He established in The Gospel of Saint Matthew, Chapter 16 verse 18,,And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. and make up our own rules as we go along and at the same time say we are CHRISTIAN...Then I believe there will be Hell to pay...Pandora's box will be opened with very dramatic and painful consequences...
I am sure it will be good for us though in the long run....
What do you think?
1/26/2011 11:46:40 PM
Kudos to Fr.Barron for speaking on this issue but it is a shame to spend 8 minutes on the topic and arrive at the worthless conclusion that we need another "national conversation" around this issue.
Are you kidding me? It is exactly these kinds of vacuous "calls for dialogue" that make pro-life Catholics wonder if the institutional American Catholic Church and Bishops are present on this issue at all. Do the bishops and clergy even care about the destruction of the unborn?
I personally have found most priests I speak with are unwilling to give even a homily on abortion for fear of "alienating" their congregation. Most priests wont even instruct the faithful about voting for politicians who support abortion. Catholics got Barack Obama elected. And yet the Church claims it opposes abortion.
Just how exactly does the Church oppose abortion? By calling for dialogue and understanding?
The Church even takes collections in parishes for the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, which for years has used the money to support pro-abortion groups! The CCHD should be disbanded completely.
Finally, there is the issue of pro abortion politicians who are allowed to claim to be Catholic and "pro choice."
I will put it simply. If pro abortion politicians like Nancy Pelosi or the late Ted Kennedy can be in Communion with the Church then that Communion is rendered adulterated for the millions of faithful Catholics who keep the Church's teaching.
One thing is clear and it is that pro-life Catholics are not really welcome in the American Catholic Church while pro abortionists are actively elevated to parish councils, running Catholic education programs, employed at the USCC and diocesan offices, etc. Pro lifers are personae non grata in the US Catholic Church -- tolerated just.
By failing to take action against pro-abortion politicians (EXCOMMUNICATE THEM UNLESS THEY REPENT) and failing to be the voice for the voiceless, one wonders if the Church is really against abortion at all or is it just a "theological" issue?
As a Catholic I will not feel truly at home in the Catholic Church as long as it fails to give public and political instruction on abortion and to be the voice of the voiceless victims of abortion.
The liberal mafia running the Catholic Chruch and most of its parishes are driving out the pro life faithful and calls for another national conversation or dialogue after 40 years of vilification and 50 million abortions wont help.
Take a stand Father. Be the voice of the voiceless. Let the call to action be truly commensurate with the graveness of the sin! Give clear instruction to the faithful especially when it comes to bringing about political and legal change. Dont tolerate for us to see the Communion of the Church abused by power hungry politicians who corrupt the Truth of Catholic teaching. The only thing Nancy Pelosi ever did about abortion was making sure there would be more of them. How is that acceptable in the Catholic Church and what does it mean to be a Catholic if a politician can actively support more abortions and remain in Communion with the Church?
With all respect Father, what is needed is for the Church to stand its ground in the public square. Church leaders have shamefully equivocated on abortion for 40 years. Is that what Christ would do on abortion? Have another discussion about it?
1/27/2011 6:22:59 AM
Hi there, Catherine.
Sadly, I wasn’t able to get a copy of Euteneuer’s book here in England as I think it was embargoed, and I’m curious about all the secrecy surrounding his disappearance. Why has Ignatius Press removed the book from their stock list? All their other books - pre-published and out of print - are listed as ‘Out of Stock’, not completely removed like that one. The official reason given is that they just decided not to reprint. (Yeah, I really believe that…)
Have superiors in the Church learnt anything at all about the effects of cover-ups?
Or, more to the point, what have superiors learnt from exposure? Have they learnt transparency, or how much of a need, and what skills are effective for, enacting an effective cover-up?
Is Euteneuer another Marcial Maciel, except they’ve acted far more effectively from what they’ve learnt?
Fr Barron says, “There’s something here, something off kilter”, about the perspective of the African-American woman’s perception of the abortion issue, but could that be applied in this instance, too?
What seems to be one of the biggest problems of the ‘new media’, and especially the internet, is the immediacy. That prominent Catholics/Catholic organisations are ‘shooting from the hip’ desperately chasing audiences – for funds – and I think it won’t be too long before the old tired line used by the lapsed of the priest always asking for money, will raise it’s ugly head here, as Catholics will start to lose confidence in the motives, and teaching, of these organisations, and drift off.
There's no accusation here, just an overwhelming sense of pessimism.
Corruptio optimi pessima...
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, Satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
1/27/2011 8:25:33 AM
Taking an innocent life is still murder is it not?
1/27/2011 10:54:06 AM
From a June 2010 article by Father Euteneuer. His remarks here are repeated in several places including the podcast related to the book retracted by Human Life International shortly before F. Euteneueur was "requested" to leave HLI and the public spotlight. In the podcast and other writings, it is absolutely clear he is not being ironic or metaphorical; he literally believes pro-choice people and abortion providers are possessed, by definition, and are not acting of their own free will.
"Those who are uncomfortable with the thought and talk of demons... [should] open your eyes and join the rest of us in the fight against the demons who are working evil in our midst. One such wicked work is the dirty business of abortion. No human activity glorifies Satan and his minions more than abortion... The spiritual dimension of this grisly business, however, is its systematizing of ritual blood sacrifice to the god of child murder who, in the Old Testament, is called Moloch... The abortion industry is our modern-day Valley of Slaughter, where abortionists offer ritual blood sacrifice to that ancient demon of child murder. Their work is in every way the key ritual of a demonic religion. Yes, a religion: Abortion has an infallible dogma ("choice"), a ruling hierarchy (Planned Parenthood), theologians (feminist ideologues) [Including those "feminist ideologies" endorsed by at least three Popes as crucial to human dignity, Father?], a sacrificing priesthood (abortionists), temples (abortion mills), altars of sacrifice (surgical tables), ritual victims (babies and also women), acolytes and sacristans (clinic workers and technicians), guardian angels (police and death-scorts), congregations (leftist foundations and private supporters), and its own version of "grace" that makes everything work (money)... This is not just guesswork on my part. Feminists [Even the Catholic feminists, Father?] and abortionists themselves have gone on record saying the same things in their own hate-filled and misguided jargon. Good examples of demonic ideology can be found on the websites and in interviews with and speeches of abortion providers and supporters. For example, extreme feminist Ginette Paris described abortion "as a sacrifice to Artemis" in her 1992 book The Sacrament of Abortion. She also said, "The same quality allows us to visualize a world of increasing respect for children, a world in which one can occasionally resort to abortion when it is necessary to sacrifice the fetus to a higher cause, namely, the love of children and the refusal to see them suffer." No mentality is more perverse than the one that calls abortion a "sacrament" and refers to abortion as an act of love for children! [This is simply a restatement of the pro-choice slogan, "Every child a wanted child." A "sacrifice to Artemis [ake. "wisdom"]" is another way of saying "doing the smart thing" or "what is best for everyone" in the long run. While it is a tangled bit of sophistry similar to the utilitarian arguments from Peter Singer, Ayn Rand, et al., it has nothing whatsoever to do with Satanism.]
And, of course, he never once addresses the reality of Christians who are pro-choice or abortion providers. Apparently, they're all "possessed," too.
Seems to me it's absolutely impossible to love your enemies at the same time you're claiming that the only reason they disagree with you is because they're under the control of Satan. Another recommended work, here, in addition to Johnson's book would be Kreeft's "Three Approaches to Abortion." Kreeft simultaneously embraces the full humanity of the pro-choice person by providing a cogent and respectful rebuttal to their beliefs; he honors their humanity by acknowledging the subtleties in the question of sometimes conflicting, simultaneously equal dignities occupying the same body. He makes it clear that you can be pro-life without hating or dehumanizing ANYONE.
1/27/2011 12:58:21 PM
I am totally mystified by the negative reaction to Father Eutenauer's book and "Yes" his comments. In no way is he dehumanizing anyone, even abortionists. In fact, recognizing the evil spirits at work in the world and in "a few persons" makes it more understandable how any person with an intellect and free will can be deluded enough or forced into killing a defenseless baby person. Only the love of Christ and His grace and the support of the good angels can open our eyes to the huge deception being supported and propagated by those with their "eyes" firmly closed.
1/27/2011 2:47:29 PM
I’m presuming that’s a direct quote you’ve given, and it seems like a journalistic rant, and not worthy of Ignatius Press. But maybe that’s why they pulled it? But, then the editor and peer reviewers must have picked it up, but chosen to ignore it, too?
I’m ‘over the pond’, and from the outside, there seem to be some worrying trends developing which Fr Barron and Fr Dwight Longenecker (although even he’s been a bit close to the mark recently, too), seem to have been able to avoid: a sort of orthodoxy which lacks charity, and is frequently present in blogs which are rooted in Catholic ‘Neo-Con’ thought. It seems to end up objectifying, if not demonising, persons, which is exactly what the abortionist does.
That is, it’s easy to become the polar opposite of the abortionist, but that ends up being just as objectifying of persons.
Fr Barron said he didn’t know whether he was right or wrong over discussing it with the cab driver, and that, to me, shows pastoral nous. He was listening, and thinking, but most importantly, unlikely to be objectifying her because he cared about her. The very reason he had a quandary, was because he doesn’t function on knee-jerk reactions. He ‘takes the time’, and tries to practice what he preaches, and that’s important.
On p129 of Weigel’s, ‘Witness to Hope’, he describes Wojtyla’s pastoral approach as ‘meeting people wisely’. ‘Other philosophers remembered texts. Karol Wojtyla remembered persons.
We must not lose sight of this.
1/27/2011 5:01:29 PM
michael jaffray king
Abortion is a very dirty and demonic business
Of this fact there is no doubt... The Gospel of John Ch 10 verse 10 points out this fact very clearly.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly.
Try to explain that to people of this world is another business. For a start many people only have a very watered down view of Christianity and almost no understanding of Demons and the works of Satan.
We know but they do not. The sad thing is that they are not seeking for more Truth because if they were they would not be blind and they would find more Truth and then more truth and so on for ever until they come face to face with The Lord.
The fact that Father did not speak up in the Taxi is very understandable...His Taxi driver had a made up mind and did not want to be confused with the True facts.
As a very amateur apologist trying to explain to Protestants how ridiculous is their hugely divided stance against Satan, I know exactly how hard it is to convince people against their will.
I was a blind and convinced Protestant for most of my life and I believe that it was mainly through Prayer of others for me that I was eventually able to see what I see so clearly now.
The Rosary is a great weapon of Prayer against Satan and his Blind to Jesus followers.
I was one of them.
All the rhetoric in the world would not have changed me without PRAYER as well. We need both in equal proportions.. The Rhetoric is the easier part in my opinion.
1/27/2011 7:53:19 PM
michael jaffray king
It's so easy to criticise but it is so much harder to trust and pray... I mean really pray and agonise...
In front of the Tabernacle or in the Rosary with your wife or husband or just by yourself..
Lord help us all.
Prayer is so important.
World war 2 could have been avoided if people had paid attention to Our Blessed Mother's instructions about the importance of Prayer and saying the Rosary..
Maybe world war three was avoided because of Father Patrick Peyton, the rosary priest's efforts in his enormously successful Rosary crusades.
A WORLD AT PRAYER IS A WORLD AT PEACE!
1/27/2011 8:02:05 PM
D. Richard, so, you believe Thomas Jefferson was possessed? All rapists are possessed? Everyone who mutilated the genitals of girls in Africa is possessed? Everyone who murdered native Americans by the thousands? The problem with the theory that anyone involved in abortion is possessed by Satan is that it overlooks the place of the Abortion tragendy in the midst on ongoing tragedies throughout history. Which murders count and which don't? You're making your decisions based on the theory that Abortion is the Worst Thing Ever, but what about the infantacide of girls in China? Is everyone who isn't a baby girl in China possessed by Satan? Speaking of China, how about the Dutch, English and Americans who paid their Chinese workers in opium in an ongoing effort to subject the entire Southern Chinese population to addiction, and thereby make it easier to exploit?
Sorry, but I just don't understand what yardstick you're using to decide who is or isn't possessed. I don't understand why and how you're creating some sort of hierarchy of suffering where only unborn (not newborn) infants count, and everybody else's pain can be ignored. Using the idea of possession as a political tool is obsessive, sloppy and very, very dangerous -- the next step is drowning and burning "witches" who happen to be politically or culturally or economically inconvenient. In fact, why not just start wiping out all non-Christians (starting with the Jews, of course.) One thing I'm certain of is that when possession happens, it happens to individuals, and not because of their politics. If you're going to condemn entire demographic groups as possessed, you have to, then, comdemn the entire world, including those members of the pro-life movement who ignore all suffering and murder not directly related to abortion. Being right about one idea gives no one the right to be an obsessive, illogical, slandarous tyrant in all others. You don't get to ignore and deny the humanity, dedication and compassion of abortion clinic workers and abortion providers -- people who are doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. By doing so, you're directly replicating the dehumanization you claim to be fighting. Calling people "possessed" is just another way of saying "I don't have to listen to anything they say because they're not fully human." Claiming that an adversary speaks only with the voice of Satan is just another way of murdering them ideologically. (And, of course, we know plenty of pro-choice people even now want to murder people quite literally. Or, are pro-choice murderers possessed, too? Sorry, but I'm having a hard time keeping track...)
1/28/2011 11:29:20 AM
On this page is a partial lists of genocides in recent history. Please go down the list, and indicate which perpetrators were or were not "possessed," and why. (For Rwanda, please indicate whether it was the Hutus or the Tutsis who were possessed. Thanks.)
1/28/2011 12:03:05 PM
Patrick C. Akers
Please pray for Father Euteneuer and I will pray for you, and if you would please pray for me. I will pray that you continue on your conversion and I will pray that you do not miss quote anyone much less a Catholic priest who has devoted his life to God. Like you I had to come back to the Church, and like you that has been a long developing conversion. Every day and every moment I struggle with the baggage of my past sinful life and struggle to reject myself and do God’s will. I can not imagine that it is God’s will that you blast Father Euteneuer. I read your excerpts, and as many of us may do from time to time when we are passionate about an issue, you have made some statements that you attribute to the good Father Euteneuer when he quoted others with an opposing view to his. It also appears to me that he is using the example of their (pro choicers) embracing of their beliefs to an extent that it has become their religion. His language is indeed graphic but to my understanding not used as you perceive it. I would like to ask you to please place yourself before the Blessed Sacrament and ask God to guide you in this matter and to your calling. It appears to me that you are mistaken about some issues.
Keep your passion, Like St Paul passion and devotion can be horrible or wonderful so please ask God to redirect your passion to his will, just like he did to St Paul.
1/28/2011 1:29:18 PM
To P. Akers
I place myself before the Blessed Sacrament on a regular basis, and yet I still disagree with you and Father Euteneuer. Go figure.
"It also appears to me that he is using the example of their (pro choicers) embracing of their beliefs to an extent that it has become their religion."
So. What. Everyone's deeply held beliefs "become their religion." In fact, using your argument, Father Euteneuer's "passionate" argument is by definition discredited specifically because he feels so strongly about it. By definition, all strongly held views are invalid. And, actually, I agree with you. The biggest problem with Father Euteneuer's description of pro-choice people as "worshipping Moloch" (Eek! Horror movie time! Everybody get really, really scared!) is that it is far more an appeal to emotion than reason. All emotional appeals, including Father E's, are ultimately forms of ethical relativism -- if it feels bad, shun it. Think with your feelings instead of your head! From what he's said on podcasts and in other articles, I think he's absolutely being literal -- he really believes (or believed?) that abortionists need to be exorcised. At any rate, his extremism is at best ridiculous and at worst a debasement of the pro-life movement to the level of an hysterical cult. In the abortion industy, there are many people doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, and in the pro-life movement there are many people doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
1/28/2011 2:57:29 PM
Fr. Barron, this is such a powerful and concise presentation of this crucial issue. I can't thank you enough for this, and I'm going to put it on my Facebook page so that others can see it as well.
As a young woman, this issue touches me deeply, because I have many friends who have had abortions and been wounded. There are so many couples longing to adopt children also, and such a shortage of children to adopt in our country. Keep up the great work - I hope many children will see their first birthday ebcause of your thoughtful and courageous voice.
1/28/2011 11:17:10 PM
Can anyone suggest an "answer" to an otherwise devout Catholic woman saying that she is against abortion but that she is for the legalization of abortion because she does not want the very young (or older) girl/woman criminalized due to the choice to abort. It appears this point is why many people are "split" on the subject. What can we say to them? It boggles my mind so much that I can't respond!! I need help on this because I engage in discussions about this horror in our country.
1/29/2011 12:45:55 AM
Re: Satan-worship...any person at any level in the abortion industry has to be working in COMPLETE DARKNESS whether they are aware of it or not. Think of this possibility: working in any way for that business is working for Satan. One does not even know it because of their OWN ideas of why they are there. But what spiritual basis exists there? God is there trying to bring His Light, as you yourself saw, but God isn't running the place. Satan is running it. Those abortionists who finally see the Light surely understand what they have done. It surely goes beyond "oh, I made a mistake." We don't know the level to which abortionists sink. There is nothing more satanistic than to murder the most vulnerable! I'm so very happy you saw the Light of Christ!
1/29/2011 1:17:55 AM
It seems to me that a squabble over demonic possession and what Eutenhauer did or didn't say does little to advance the present conversation. Whether or not one's spirituality resonates with the extreme conservatism that some Ignatius Press publications reflect, it seems that all of us can agree that abortion is an evil and that all evil is connected to Evil. I'm also grateful that Mary Noroski has reminded us that the problem is sometimes so complex, especially when we're talking about impregnated sexual abuse victims, that lockstep, recipe-like responses just won't do.
1/29/2011 8:54:20 AM
Whatever else we discuss regarding the degree to which the evil of abortion is organized, I think we must all agree it is EVIL. For those needing a refresher, please review the grand jury report on the abortion clinic/charnel house in Philadelphia. http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/GrandJuryWomensMedical.pdf
one quote regarding the treatment of babies who were aborted alive: "after playing with the baby Williams slit its neck. When asked why Williams had killed the baby, Cross aswered, "...she see Dr. Gosnell do it so many times, I guess she felt, you know, she can do it. Its okay."
1/29/2011 8:54:53 AM
I won't go deeply into the debate going on in this thread--I'll just say I commend Kell and Paul's forceful reminders of the humanity of those who disagree and wrongly believe that abortion is only solution to certain problems. I also wish to simply say that I pray for the unborn and their mothers.
1/29/2011 9:14:22 AM
Hi Mary Noroski
Re: Why abortion should be illegal and why the woman who gets an abortion should be criminalized
I have thought about this issue. It is a very tough issue and goes to the heart of the matter. For the longest time this is the reason I never declared myself pro-life definitely. I also protected the pro-choice side.
Here are some of my reasons for why I no longer think that the ciminalization of women is incorrect (and some of them have been articulated by Father Barron):
1. Our laws set the tone for what is right and what is wrong. In most Western societies the rights on one person end when they infringe on the rights of another. In this sense abortion is always wrong if one believes a life begins at conception (which I find irrefutable);
2. Can one person impose their view of when life begins on others? Yes. This is "the" role of all law. Again, our laws exists to show the citizens what is right and what is not. This does mean law is in part subjective and changed according to the people who enact it. However, this subjective aspect of law is superceded by the objective reality. The objective reality in the case of abortion law is the fact that all human life begins at conception. This is why those who are pro-choice will call the baby every scientific term under the sun rather than a baby. As the poplar saying goes, the day a woman gives to birth to a non-human being like a "pink unicorn" I will change my mind on this issue.
3. What do we do with these criminalized women? And how do we and how do our governments beg for forgiveness for abandoning all these women and families and children in the time of their great need? First, it is never to late to start and to change. Accepting this guilt is the hardest part of the process because all of us are responsible either directly through working in the abortion industry or indirectly by being inactive and not denouncing the actions and viewpoint of the pro-choice person. In the end, we must simply "choose" to accept this guilt.
4> Does the criminalizing of these women mean we lack compassion? No. We can criminalize the action and still show concern for the person who has had to get an abortion. We are all responsible to a certain extent. The penalty for abortions can be varied and does not have to be unilateral. Women who have had abortion in the past can be given a pardon due to the ignorance of our society and the laws on the books at the time. The law can distinguish between medically necessary abortions (which are extremely rare), miscarriages, and abortions of covenience and economic need. The law could make hospitals the only permissable place for abortions and that each abortion procedure is do*****ented, reported and reviewed. Once the law has been enacted our society must remember that no matter what the law of the land is there will always be abortion done. This fact is due to the evil that grips every one of our hearts from time to time.
5. A positive solution. So once the law has been changed then what does one do with all the young and financially needy Moms? Each Western society needs to have a national daycare program that provides care that can care for infants. Putting their child up for adoption should not be the only alternative presented to a new Mom. This national daycare system can be either run by the government, private industry, nonprofit organizations (like Church) or a combination of the three. It would be really nice to see someone with very deep pockets try to do this and put their money where there mouth is. Furthermore, a national daycare will not just be a drain on society's pocket book. The new Mom's will be able to work or go back to school and will not be very productive members of society. They will have a real need and desire to be productive.
I hope this was helpful and I apologize for any missing words and poor grammar (I need to review my posts more thoroughly).
1/29/2011 10:57:04 AM
Tyler! Thank you for your input and direction. This will be very helpful to me when I speak again with my devout Catholic friend.
Your idea of a national daycare system could be a great resource for the new Moms who want to keep their babies! Here is one "national" project I think would be worth the money...and government's help would be wisely directed. I will pray and ask God's guidance in taking some steps toward something like what you suggest. Thanks again for your clear answer. Hope this msg comes out clear too...I left my glasses somewhere! Happy to have found this blog! God Bless you all...you all have interesting and informative expressions.
1/29/2011 11:13:24 PM
This is where we all need to be...
God Bless and have a great day
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO ALL THE BISHOPS OF THE CHURCH
ON THE MYSTERY AND WORSHIP
OF THE EUCHARIST
And this adoration of ours contains yet another special characteristic. It is compenetrated by the greatness of that human death, in which the world, that is to say each one of us, has been loved "to the end."(12) Thus it is also a response that tries to repay that love immolated even to the death on the cross: it is our "Eucharist," that is to say our giving Him thanks, our praise of Him for having redeemed us by His death and made us sharers in immortal life through His resurrection.
This worship, given therefore to the Trinity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, above all accompanies and permeates the celebration of the Eucharistic Liturgy. But it must fill our churches also outside the timetable of Masses. Indeed, since the Eucharistic Mystery was instituted out of love, and makes Christ sacramentally present, it is worthy of thanksgiving and worship. And this worship must be prominent in all our encounters with the Blessed Sacrament, both when we visit our churches and when the sacred species are taken to the sick and administered to them.
Adoration of Christ in this sacrament of love must also find expression in various forms of eucharistic devotion: personal prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, Hours of Adoration, periods of exposition-short, prolonged and annual (Forty Hours)-eucharistic benediction, eucharistic processions, eucharistic congresses.(13) A particular mention should be made at this point of the Solemnity of the Body and Blood of Christ as an act of public worship rendered to Christ present in the Eucharist, a feast instituted by my predecessor Urban IV in memory of the institution of this great Mystery.(14) All this therefore corresponds to the general principles and particular norms already long in existence but newly formulated during or after the Second Vatican Council.(15)
The encouragement and the deepening of eucharistic worship are proofs of that authentic renewal which the council set itself as an aim and of which they are the central point. And the venerable and dear brothers, deserves separate reflection. The Church and the world have a great need of eucharistic worship. Jesus waits for us in this sacrament of love. Let us be generous with our time in going to meet Him in adoration and in contemplation that is full of faith and ready to make reparation for the great faults and crimes of the world by our adoration never cease.
1/30/2011 12:20:52 PM
In response to Mary Naroski: when abortion was illegal, it wasn't the woman who would be prosecuted under the law but the person who performed the abortion. Making abortion illegal again doesn't mean women will have to go to jail or be fined -- only those who illegally perform the abortion.
1/30/2011 5:05:05 PM
I agree with making it illegal to perform an abortion. (Thanks for bringing this up). However, now that we know what used to be the law I am wondering what women think about the way the old law worked? Was it sufficient?
And by not making women responsible for their choices does it not send the wrong message to young women?
I hope this question is taken in the spirit of searching for truth. I, in no way, want to sound anti-women, but I am concerned that some young women may get the wrong idea about the morality of abortion if they do not accept their ultimate role in the decision making process.
Life is tough and presents us with choices that are not always easy to make - like the decision to have no pre-marital sex.
For the record, I belive even women who have been raped should have their children. This opinion is based on the idea that every life is innocent and also that if we were able to discover our own genealogy in its entirity we may find out that our own background is filled with very evil characters.
1/30/2011 6:35:05 PM
The reason I was thinking the old law might be not sufficient was because of the way it was structured. It is similar to how prostitutes are prosecuted rather the "Johns." And although this law is better than no law, no one can say that it sends a strong message to the "John."
1/30/2011 6:50:07 PM
“Life is tough”— aww, really?
I am a Christian and I do not believe that the law surrounding abortion will be reversed. The pro-life/anti/choice blah blah blah are political forums and it’s not going to change anything as long as there is a bigger picture to consider.
Stay with me.
There are many reasons that women have abortions. Many are abused, molested, depressed, unstable, chemically-imbalanced, poor, sad, alone, afraid. There is this picture of the Woman Who Has an Abortion and that she lives in New York or LA, is promiscuous and aborts one child after another simply because motherhood is "inconvenient". The truth is that these cases are the minority. (Father Barron doesn't cite where he is getting his statistics. BTW- anybody consider that the women in the poorer parts of Africa are getting pregnant not because of lack of condoms but because they're being raped? ) So many things can go wrong during a pregnancy that will compromise the mother's health and/or the child's. There are cases so specialized that it would make your head spin. To lump sum all women and all abortion cases into one category is ignorant. And to say “you can have an abortion under this cir*****stance but you cannot” goes against law. The law works in that it is or it isn’t. It doesn’t allow for gray. In countries where Gray is the Way, there are atrocities and I wouldn’t want to live in that environment. That said, the way to stop abortion across the planet (or at least the U.S.) is to create a responsible community that supports women and mothers; a society that promotes commitment and marriage in the dating culture and teaches its men to not rape and abuse and has laws that vehemently protect women from abuse and violence. How're we gonna make that happen? Not by demonizing women. They’ll simply scamper off and have their abortions.
And what are we going to do about the cases of rape, homosexuality and molestation among priests in the Catholic church? We can talk about it as one of the "usual" topics (---> isn't that how he labeled it?) but there are monsters working as priests and they "should" and "can" be stopped. When is the Catholic Church going to allow their priests to marry, pursue family and allow women to lead?
P.S. Tyler, you do sound like a misongynist. You knew that you were coming across that way or you wouldn't have written about it in your post to Joan. What are YOU doing to make the world a better place for women to live and raise these children?
1/31/2011 6:39:42 PM
I am glad you liked the idea of a National Day Care program. I look forward to the day it is a reality. It will really give families and young Mom's choice.
1/31/2011 8:21:22 PM
I debated whether to respond or not to your post for vaiours reasons. in the end I think it is wise to engage your conversation. I hope your response to what I write will try to directly answer my questions and perhaps together we may come to a consensus on the topic.
I have not done much to help women. Indeed the only ways I currently know how to do so is by volunteering at a pro-life organization or by donating to one. I have helped families with disabled children and I have volunteered to coach on some sport teams. These activities may or may not have helped some women or Moms. I would like to hear your suggestions on how I may help women, without of course assisting them to get an abortion.
Catherine, I would ask you what difference does the reason for the abortion make to the aborted child? Does the aborted child care if his or her father is a rapist? Should the the sins of the Father be put on the innocent child. Should the women raped allow the trauma of the occassion to abort a child? Aren't there better ways we can help both the Mother and the child rather than simply ending the life of the baby?
Perhaps, my insistence on women taking responsibility of their choices does sound misongynisitic but, in retrospect, I was really empowering women and that is my goal to help women recognize that this is indeed their choice and they should choose life.
I look forward to your response Catherine and I thank you for your last response - it took courage.
In my opinion statistics, percentages, and reasons as to why women get an abortion is irrelevant.
Having a law that is flexible and "Gray" as you put it is a hallmark of a Western society so I am not sure what you are talking about on this point so perhaps you could explain further.
In short, women are currently forced to make a decision no man would ever want to make. I don't understand why women are letting the government force them to make this decision? Do you not see how cowardly this is on the part of the government?
2/1/2011 7:42:53 PM
By the way Catherine I supoport your desire for for stronger and longer sentences for rapists. I, too, think they get off too lightly.
2/1/2011 7:52:44 PM
A great source of clarity on this issue:
Theology of the Body - John Paul II: when the human body is properly understood as sacred and made in the image of God, abortion becomes unthinkable...
2/2/2011 9:19:40 AM
Recommended viewing (for when you're done watching everything on WOF, of course) -- Book TV presentation on "The Honor Code: How Moral Revolutions Happen. More clues for the effort. http://www.booktv.org/Program/11851/The+Honor+Code+How+Moral+Revolutions+Happen.aspx
2/7/2011 4:12:31 PM
What an interesting discussion.
All of us are in different places at any given time in our spiritual growth and in our awareness and understanding of different issues.
In this light, I would like to tell Kell- Welcome to the church and I hope you continue in your growth. It is something that doesn't end until we go on to meet our heavenly father.
I haven't read the particular book that was mentioned, but I think perhaps reading a book that is a bit popular at the moment "The Rite", might be a good idea. It actually has some pretty good explanations and information about church teaching on Satan and Demons, possession, infestation, and obsession.
There are indeed demons (fallen angels, remember?!) that are surrounding us at any given time, and each has their own mission. Just as the Holy Angels have their own missions. The demons take joy when we sin, and they try their best to get us to commit sin, even without our knowledge. Satan is the king of lies and half truths, and that is where most people get caught up.
The church has the St. Michael prayer precisely because of this knowledge of spiritual warfare. So please don't discount the existance of this. Satan is very much involved in the abortion industry, whether folks are "aware" of it or not.
The passages you quoted are of a literary form- I can't explain it, but I understand what is being said. I am fairly certain it is correct on a spiritual level, again though, I doubt folks even know what is happening. Being Duped by Satan.
I like Abby's book, "Unplanned". She does indeed make the point that prayerful, cheerful presence and persistance is what helped her. She was loved even when she was on the "other side of the fence". It goes under the category of hate the sin, but love the sinner.
As for some other comments: State or government run daycare? Are you CRAZY??? Indoctrinating our children? Good grief. No way.
There are already childcare subsidies available in every state for low income women/familes.
Abortion being legal has not made it safer. It has not helped women. It has certainly not helped those women who were KILLED before they were born. It has only made it more common, and more of a big business.
2/8/2011 2:13:28 PM
Thank you Nancy. I agree with your post 100%
2/8/2011 4:57:36 PM
Agreed before daycare comes the Domestic Church.
My meek and less than perfect point is that before death of the unborn due to a decision prompted by financial hardship comes indoctrination by the government or daycare.
2/8/2011 9:00:28 PM
A few other points:
Daycare is indoctrination at most 40 to 50 hours per week. Most times weekend and evenings are still with Mom and/or Dad.
A government, church, or business that offers infant childcare helps to promote a culture of life.
A Culture of Life! That would be a good thing for our government to do? Yes or No?
2/8/2011 9:20:37 PM
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